Hello and welcome.

This is A Penny for Your Thoughts, a student-led podcast where we come together to talk about different perspectives on many different topics.

And I’m here with Kwam Washington.

Okay, and Ace Moody.

Nice.

Tell me about yourself here on campus to begin with, if you want to give any titles.

So, I’m Kwam Washington.

Pretty much, you know, my major is kinesiology.

I’ve been going here since fall of 2024.

I consider my sexuality as gay.

You know, my pronouns are he, him.

I’m born in Houston, Texas.

And, you know, kind of just came over here after like serving eight years in the military and the Navy.

So, yeah, that’s a little short introduction of who I am.

Oh, my goodness.

And you, Ace?

Hi, my name is Ace Moody.

I was born and raised in Big Show, California.

I am an elder queer.

I turned 50 this year.

I am a student at CSUB.

My pronouns are he, him, which we’ll get into.

Yes.

Let’s see.

What else do we need to know?

I’ve been active in this community forever.

I’m the vice president of the LGBTQ plus community here.

I also am a board member at the center downtown.

We love, we love someone who is very active for sure.

So, the topic of this podcast is going to be about the modern dating culture in the queer community.

So, I don’t mind who wants to answer first.

But if you mind giving a brief introduction and personal experience with your sexuality before you decided to come out.

Okay.

So, I guess I’ll begin.

So, my story is a little bit complicated, right?

Actually, two coming out stories.

However, literally, I didn’t get the choice of coming out.

I was kind of like dragged out.

So, personally, the people in these stories, like I love dearly.

They’re very close to my life.

And we pretty much like just learn as we grow because we all only been on earth for the first time ever.

So, I will.

So, the first time pretty much like I realized that like, you know, I had like this.

I mean, even as a kid, like I always gravitated towards girly things.

Princess Peach was my character.

Princess Daisy love bubbles off of like Powerpuff Girls.

Like I was that type of little kid, you know.

But, you know, growing up in like a black, it was like most shameful thing you could ever do.

It’s the most disgusting, despicable thing ever.

So, you know, never really felt comfortable ever exploring that.

Or I didn’t even know about that because I didn’t even know anything about sexuality.

That’s just naturally what I was pretty much like, you know, geared towards like instinctively.

But the first time I kind of felt those feelings was like, you know, on a classmate in seventh grade when I was going through puberty.

Yeah, it was this dude named Freddy.

He was so beautiful to me.

Oh, my God.

But I was kind of like getting to the point.

I have this best friend, my best friend.

Literally, she just got proposed.

I love her so much.

Yeah, I was.

Her name’s Ashley.

I was telling her pretty much like, you know, about like my feelings and getting a little bit more comfortable.

I didn’t confirm anything with her as well because like, I mean, I loved her.

I trusted her.

But I know like, you know, I just basically just started like easing my way.

And then like she gave me like an ultimatum like, oh, if you don’t tell the rest of the friend group, I will.

So it got to that point to where I just kind of just told like my other friend about it.

And like she accepted me full on.

It was very beautiful.

I was scared.

I was crying.

But it was like, I mean, I’m happy that I did because I finally like a sense of freedom.

You know what I’m saying?

Do you feel like it was kind of like a form of tough love that she was giving?

In a way, in a way, it was like, OK, like this is like, I think it was also a lot of information for her to only hold to herself.

It was like, OK, she was young.

She didn’t really know how to navigate it herself.

And basically she was like, bro, it’s crazy.

Most of these people and it’s like you live in this only like this life towards me.

It’s like maybe she felt like at that time it was like fair for other people to know that information.

But what happened happened.

You know what I mean?

And then coming out with my family was a different story.

You know, growing up with my mom and my dad, extremely homophobic.

I guess I was their lesson.

You know what I mean?

So, I mean, the stuff that I heard from them over the years, I already knew it was just something that was just like to make them uncomfortable.

However, she kept asking me these questions, like trying to get me to come out, like my mom pressuring me.

And then she like my mom was like 32 years older than me.

She took my phone and ran with it.

Mind you, I didn’t talk to any boys or nothing at this point.

So literally, that actually stressed me out so much.

I was like, Oh, you want to know?

I’ll tell you.

Yes, I am.

What now?

What was the issue?

Like, you know what I mean?

Because I mean, you clearly I mean, you act like you don’t want it, but you want to know.

So now you know, now what are you going to do about it?

Yes.

Wow.

Yeah.

What about you, Ace?

What was yours?

So mine is kind of a journey.

But it’s so I never really came out came out until well, we’ll get there.

So I used to play with my Barbies and my Ken dolls, right?

I can remember my age.

So I had my Barbies and my Ken’s.

But the thing is, is that I would marry my Ken dolls to my Ken dolls, and my Barbies to my Barbies.

Mind you, I don’t know any of this.

We’re talking like 1980.

Right?

And I am completely on my own.

And then also marrying Barbie with Ken and whatever, to the point that my parents took my dolls away and only let me play with Barbies.

Yeah, it’s wild.

I was gonna say, I think that’s interesting, because I feel like the conversations that are happening, you know, a debate on one side and debate on another side of when it starts, or if it’s taught.

And I think that is a clear example that your kids can be conditioned.

That’s Yeah, right.

Because like, legitimately, like, on what sorry, on what, quote, normal.

Yeah, they can be conditioned on what is normal.

Yeah, through societal standards, right?

Yes.

And so there’s that.

And then like, all growing up, like, my parents were always like, very cautious.

Like when I had girlfriends over, and stuff.

And like, mind you, I’m like a kid, I don’t know what’s going on.

I’m just playing and blah, blah, blah.

And no, it was looking back now, like, I realized, like, my parents knew, okay, this child is different, basically.

And I didn’t even recognize it.

And so my first girlfriend, though, was when I was 12.

And we were neighbors, we lived a block away.

And on and off again, we were best friends, but we were also like, girlfriend, girlfriend for a long time.

And, like, that was crazy.

I mean, it was like, so much fun.

But like, I didn’t really come out.

But like people, like, once we got to high school, like, there were people that literally as an adult, like in the grocery store and apologized to me, because they were so jealous of me in high school, because I was out as a lesbian.

But I wasn’t out.

Like, we had boyfriends, like, technically, at that point, we were both saying we were bi.

But like, we weren’t like out, out.

But apparently, we were out enough that like other people, you know, like, we were not out.

But other people, their like radar was, no, this girl is like into girls, too.

And so we kind of like, I went through that journey and stuff.

And, you know, I never really came out and said that I was bi.

Like, it just was a state of being.

And, like, I had friends that were in the community and stuff and all of that.

And then in my mid 20s, and, and we got married right before we were 30.

And that, you know, so then you’re talking, okay, so you’re a heteronormative couple.

So I went through this whole dating scene, dating boys and girls, you know, but like never really putting a label.

And so that’s when it got really interesting, though, because I realized that I was asexual, demisexual, specifically, at the time.

Yeah, it wasn’t until after I was married, which it’s one of those things that like, my spouse and I obviously, we’re still together, we just celebrated our 25th anniversary.

And it’s a whole bunch of like, um, but yeah, no.

So that’s why I couldn’t, it’s one of those things that like, I was like, Oh, my God, I have a word for what I feel.

Like, because I love my spouse, I loved all my other partners.

But like, you know, the deed was just like, okay, this is cool.

Yeah, would you mind kind of explain what demisexual is for listeners who don’t necessarily understand or know?

Okay, sure.

So, um, I’m going to give you the tightest answer that I can.

Okay.

So asexuality is when you are someone who may have romantic feelings, but you may not have sexual feelings for them.

Okay, that’s kind of, and it’s used as a larger umbrella term now.

Now, demisexuals, most often will say that they’re demisexual, because they can kind of, they cross that bridge.

Either it’s because we got to know you really well, really, really good, and we’ve known you for like a really long time.

And then like, it like, feels right.

But like, I’m the sort of demisexual, where I’m kind of a little bit further from that to where like, I enjoy it because my partner enjoys it, not necessarily because like, I have a drive or a need to do it.

Yeah, for real.

You know who the bottom is in the relationship, right?

Yeah, because I, well, I won’t get into it like too much, because I want to know about you guys.

But whenever I heard you were going to come on this podcast, I was looking more into demisexual.

And for me, I don’t, I don’t know what I will or would identify with.

But I definitely know that it’s very hard for me to be sexually attractive to people that I do not embody with.

Yes, yeah.

That that’s just been an always, like, that’s just been the thing for me.

I don’t know.

But how has, how has both of your guys’s coming out experiences kind of created like internal pressures when it comes to forming relationships after?

When we’re talking about like, community?

Did you find a new community?

Well, I would say like, I mean, coming out is just literally the band-aid.

Everybody think, oh, once you come out, oh, you’re free.

Now you got to unheal all that trauma that you pretty much was literally like, that was all these ideals and beliefs about yourself, all this, like, you know, these views that you have and shame that you have from being gay, you need to unwork it and you need to like pretty much go on your own journey, you know?

So that part, literally for me, it took me a minute, you know, to actually be comfortable with it, to like basically go out the way I wanted to do and also like literally, you know, be comfortable not being like shamed or afraid to be hate crime.

So, I mean, even when I was in high school, but luck for me, though, what I did as more of a shield in a way, you know, which I grew out of, you know, as a young girl when I first came out, I mean, I was like more myself and I was being open with it.

I was afraid to actually be vulnerable with men, but I also like defended my queerness, if that makes sense.

Like, it’s like, okay, this is who I am.

This is what I’m coming to terms with.

I’m going to dress how I want to dress and if you have a problem with it, you can fight me.

So that’s how, like, you can seriously, we were throwing hands.

I was that type of kid.

It’s a type of self-love.

You got to stick up for yourself.

Yeah.

But, you know, as the years progressed, like, you know, I just went to therapy, you know, started like, you know, going online and basically just seeing more like open queerness and just like, you know, feeling that sense that.

With the community aspect of it, I will say, I will say, man, it was not what I expected.

Yeah.

Like from your also from your community before and the community after, how much of a change was that?

Oh, I will say like, so with the LGBT community, I really still feel like I don’t have much of a footing or place in that.

Yeah, even now at my big age of 28, I feel like the community itself is like pretty much very broken and just not healing their trauma.

And it’s very like, in a way, it’s very like superficial.

It’s very transactional.

I feel like basically as a gay man, like for like, it’s hard for me to even find other gay friends.

I have very few selectives, but it’s like they either just want to like or they want to like basically have this fake sense of like competition with me to where they feel like they have to like belittle me or one up me or something like that.

It’s not genuine.

It’s like it’s always like some weird sense of cattiness.

I know that’s not every gay man because clearly like, you know, people, there’s good people that exist in different.

But my experience hasn’t been like just clear cut, like very embracing.

It’s been very like transactional.

So, I mean, honestly, I feel like I have a deeper relationship with like lesbians and straight women, you know.

And also, I mean, even straight guys are more accepting than the gay dudes.

So, yeah.

There is like a huge pandemic on unhealed and healed.

But what was your experience, Ace, having the community that you had before and then did that change?

Well, like I said, it’s kind of interesting because like in my 30s, I started meeting people again like that I had gone to college with.

And that was kind of like this whole overarching thing is they always thought I was going to wind up with a woman, which is hilarious.

But, I mean, I’m totally down for it.

That’s not the point.

Right as I took a drink.

Well, I mean, no, but I mean, that’s kind of the point of like, like that’s not even all of my coming out.

Because like I realized like the person’s body that I love, it’s just the person itself, right?

So themselves.

And so it’s like, it doesn’t matter where you are in our beautiful, wonderful spectrum.

LGBTQIA2S+, you know, like I could find a place in my heart for you kind of thing.

And like, when I married my husband, when I married my spouse, like it wasn’t because he was a man, it was because I loved him.

Right, right, right.

Yeah.

And that’s where kind of it’s weird is because so my, like, we always kind of always had friends that were LGBTQIA2S+.

You know, but mind you, we still considered ourselves pretty much a cishet couple, like for the most part, you know.

And we knew mostly cishet couples, we knew, but we had other friends.

And so it’s so wild, because now, like, I came out in September as trans.

I lived the first 49 years of my life as a cis-aligned female.

But that’s why we talk about coming out.

Because I finally came out to myself.

Because again, I realized like several years ago, teaching gender here locally at the center, is that I never felt attached.

But I did the typical thing, which is I always viewed it as drag.

Yeah.

Female was always drag for me, always, since I was a baby girl.

Oh, wow.

But I didn’t realize that that’s what was going on in my body.

Right.

So yeah, so like that was traumatic.

When I came out, it was at 3 a.m. in the Target parking lot.

We were sitting in like the seating area, like back over there, you know, how like there’s like this little fountain and stuff.

And I just, we were sitting there talking, and he was just like, well, you just tell me what is going on.

And I came out to him, and I said, I’m trans, you know.

And he was like, thank God, you know.

Yeah.

He’s like, that just makes so much sense.

I’m honest with yourself.

Yeah.

Like wild.

I love that.

So he’s seen you before you seen.

Yeah.

No, for real.

And then like three days later, I got my haircut.

I’ll show you a picture at the end, what I looked like just before.

And like people that have seen the picture, like you, it’s an immediate alignment.

It’s like you can see.

And he even says, he’s like, it’s literally like this is you, meant to be.

So yeah, so it’s like wild.

So, but I have a community here through the center.

You know, I have several rounds of facilitation underneath me.

And, you know, it’s a really, really good community there.

And, but it’s kind of, you know, post COVID and everything, it’s kind of a little disapparate.

But that’s where a lot of that has been and where I’ve engendered a lot of relationships and stuff is there because similar, right?

It’s really, really hard in the community to find community that like wants to hang and not like get down.

Yeah.

Right.

Like, no, I want to hang out with my friends.

I don’t care that for solidarity purposes and for community, we need to have these spaces.

I mean, we have these conversations like, look, be the real, real, like, you know, you know, it doesn’t always have to be about the hookup.

It can be about like our friendship and like building these, you know, bonds.

How does that.

I know that that kind of goes into like, and I want to go specifically into like the modern dating culture.

I know that.

Oh, I hear a lot about it.

I can.

Yeah.

How is that experience?

Because I have like my own thoughts, obviously, as someone who is straight.

So I’m like, I’m really curious on how it is.

One who is gay and someone who is a demisexual, you’re already talking about friendships and groups is difficult.

And yeah, go on a little bit about that.

All right.

So I will say like the gay, the dating scene is honestly, it’s sewer water, baby.

I’m gonna be honest with you.

It’s pretty.

So I don’t.

All this negativity and stuff.

I have have actually been in like three relationships in my life.

So, I mean, I have like fell in love.

I have like, you know, you know, had like a deeper connection with men before in the past.

But, you know, unfortunately, it always didn’t work out.

I will say like everything here is like especially due to social media, I feel like it’s a meat market, essentially.

Like you have to fit a certain standard.

And then it’s like hierarchies in it, in the dating scene, too, because it’s like basically, you know, it’s not as inclusive as like we I mean, we broadcast it to like pretty much our straight counterparts.

Because, I mean, there’s racism.

There’s femme phobia.

You know, you have to fit like a certain type of level of body fat.

So basically, given myself that I’m a black gay and kind of like, you know, a feminine type of man, they try to put me at the bottom.

But however, though, I will say like hookups are kind of easy for me because I’m actually attractive, too.

So that kind of just works in my favor, which, you know.

But honestly, like that’s that’s not enough for me.

You know what I’m saying?

I need like actual like courtmanship or actually trying to get to know somebody.

But I feel like men in general lack just being safe, being vulnerable.

Like I feel like that’s just a men epidemic, whether they’re straight or gay.

So it’s kind of hard to actually like literally actually fully be honest with you because they really just have different secret intentions with you, you know, just to get something out of it.

Yeah.

And I mean, like that also goes on top of, you know, being part of the queer community, there’s childhood trauma.

There’s so there’s so much someone has to heal from.

And then on top of that, being perceived and defined different than how you identify is enough on its own.

So that’s yeah.

Plus, societal beauty standards, too.

Like, I think like it also like the hierarchy.

That’s great.

I didn’t even think about that.

Yeah, that’s very existing, especially with gay men, for sure.

Literally, it’s crazy because like it’s very like it’s weird.

It’s so misogynistic, like in a way, because like the fact that like literally is like very comfortable and stuff.

And bottoms are literally like we’re the visibility of the gay community.

If you actually think about it, we literally put ourselves out there.

We’re the ones being emotionally vulnerable and all this stuff.

And it’s yeah, it’s way less stuff.

We’re more comfortable with ourselves.

You know what I mean?

But it’s it’s pretty much it’s a lot that plays into it.

You know, it’s a lot.

No fats, no fans, no blacks, no Asians.

Like you see that all on the Grindr profiles.

Everything is quick, transnational.

Yes, they’re straight up like just straight up blatantly weird, racist, bad energy.

They don’t treat you as it’s also like social media in a way they have these torsos.

They don’t really like.

So they’ll sit there, they’ll interact with you.

But basically, if they want to say some off the wall, wild shit or wild stuff to you, they will and then like block you because they’ll have to have be accountable for it because the discretion behind it.

Yeah, I’ve heard that, too.

And the thing is, too, is.

I think I’m going to use cross-culturally because that’s really what it is, because when you’re talking about our community, we all have our like little bubbles of culture, too, right?

It’s legit all the way.

Like nobody would date me like today’s time.

If I wasn’t like I would probably have to be out as a lesbian.

But then it automatically assume I’m butch, right, which I’m neither.

Well, for the trans purposes, yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

But you people can’t see me.

I look butch.

Yeah.

So most people currently would say that.

So so it’s like so they’re like, OK, well, you’re butch and you’re skinny.

Right.

I don’t know if I can get down with that.

Like, you know, or like you’re a little bit too out the way you look.

Like, can you tone it down when you’re with me?

Like there is this whole thing.

And fems, too.

Fems have it just as bad, just like it is in the gay community.

Like, no, you’re too lipstick, you know.

My sexual perspective, though, is like getting people to understand.

It goes back to relationship building.

No, I want the relationship.

Like all of the bedroom stuff and all of that.

That’s all secondary to me.

Like, I understand it’s super important to you as a human being and you need that connectivity.

But like, I need this.

Right.

And no, maybe you’re wrong.

You need to go get yourself checked.

You need to go get on hormones.

What do you mean you don’t want to like, no, for real, like that kind of stuff.

Men and women.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it’s wild.

And so honestly, like, is it the same for y’all to like masculinity is like literally perceived to be like the hierarchy and stuff?

Because, you know, that’s like in the straight culture.

That’s what it is.

Oh, yeah.

And we don’t want no sassy man.

It’s like literally they adopt that because they have shame of pretty much themselves.

It’s crazy because it’s like most of these gay men are literally just wearing polos and caps and literally the most feminine man I’ve met.

Yeah.

It’s so funny.

I was like, just shut up, please.

Just be yourself.

Like, you know, I’m saying literally live yourself, be creative.

My spouse told me, right.

Like, oh, my gosh, you’re finally like you’re you’re seeing and perceiving yourself really for the first time.

And it’s like, yeah, I say like the like the social impact of like societal beauty standards.

Like I did that.

Was that one of the what do you think?

OK, what do you think?

Main reasons of why you had a hard time being honest with yourself about that?

Well, OK. So there’s this little thing called neurodivergence.

OK. OK. Yeah.

And so a lot of people who are neurodivergent also really cross a lot of boundaries.

Where their gender normally, because we kind of are more ourselves as children and even as young adults, like and you as you move in college spaces and you’re out on your own for the first time away, maybe for your parents for the first time in your family and your centers and you’re figuring yourself out.

Like you’ll see that evolution with people.

They’ll play with gender one way or the other.

Like I like, you know, painting nails, stuff like that, dying hair color.

And they could say they’re punk, but really they’re they’re engendering themselves for the first time.

Right.

That’s like one of the thing that I feel like bothers me so much.

Even masculinity, like the the perception of other men who are straight, but secure in their sexuality.

They don’t care about painting their nails.

You know what I mean?

But like those who are like, oh, I don’t know.

Like that’s, you know, that’s like that to me just shows that you are not secure in your sexuality.

For sure.

To me, because why are there certain condition?

It’s like, why are you trying to prove a point?

Because literally, if you’re straight, we notice it’s cool.

You can literally be as creative as you want.

It’s not going to change your identity.

You can paint your nails, you can dye your hair like it.

I don’t understand.

I feel like also society puts certain things like this is female and this is male.

These are female things and these are male things when really it’s like, why are we why are we doing that?

Why is painting your nails a female thing to do?

Yeah, it’s painting.

Like what?

It makes no sense to me.

It doesn’t.

It’s what’s with all these rules, these rule books about existing on your own terms, using your free will.

Use your free will however you choose.

It’s really strange.

And that’s why a lot of people are depressed and unhappy, because they literally have to put themselves in this box for society.

That society pressures you to do that, you know, and then that’s where the lack of self-love comes and that’s where it automatically leads to inauthenticity.

And then you start to hold that within, you know, and you don’t talk about it, you don’t speak about it, you don’t show about it.

And then it shows through misogyny and, you know, so.

And then also, I don’t even want to talk about this.

Like, sorry, even with the straight counterparts, what I’ve noticed, too, is like a lot of women get hate because y’all have the freedom to express yourselves.

And the men don’t like that.

You know what I mean?

I noticed that.

Like, it’s like, OK. You can’t.

So stop like.

But yet you want me to perform my gender.

Yeah.

But then you get angry at me because I’m performing my gender too well.

Yes.

It’s like, you know what I mean?

And then, like, even like something like recently, like, I remember this girl, she posted like about Galentine’s and it’s like men are mad that their girls and stuff rather than, you know, I guess chasing after.

But it’s like literally is like, OK, just because you are emotionally available to where y’all can’t have like actual deep, you know, connections with your male friends and y’all can’t hang out without being perceived as gay.

You can’t take that out on women.

Y’all are allowed to have fun and be if y’all are single.

You know what I mean?

And just because you don’t have that, you know, that type of closeness with your friends, don’t take that anger out on me.

That’s misdirected anger.

How about you change what’s going on in your community?

But about projection, this actually leads into nicely to like one of the things that the center is doing like this month is.

Day we have appeared a peer group called Shades of Masculinity and it’s open to anybody allies and LGBT, you know, wherever you are on that spectrum as a male, including, you know, trans brothers and all that.

And and it’s to talk about these issues, be like, look, brother, you’re cool.

Like, yeah, we can talk about these things in a safe space.

It is OK to talk about your feelings.

It is OK to discuss our dating culture.

It is OK to figure out where you are in this space.

So that way you go forward and then you can share this stuff with other.

Right.

What where is this taking place and at what time?

Because I know you said on Wednesdays.

But if you would like to do a little a little.

So the center is downtown.

We recently moved into a brand new building and I will actually get you the address real quick.

So our new address is 707 18th Street.

OK, so you can look up the Silver Fox lounge or you can look up Mexicali because they’re literally like we’re on that corner and the two of them face us.

And Shades of Masculinity is from six to seven thirty on Wednesday.

And then we also have drop in hours every single Friday from five thirty to seven thirty.

And we have like game nights and stuff like that on Saturday.

So, yeah.

But no, Shades of Masculinity is a very cool program.

And I also noticed next to my favorite bar and breakfast spot, the Smitten and the Botanist.

Yeah.

The Botanist.

I’ve heard about the Botanist.

Girl, we should go.

I ain’t gonna lie.

I’m down.

I’m down.

But but yeah.

So like when you’re just talking about all that, like that’s kind of what we need to unpack and we need to keep making these safe spaces.

Because if if our men don’t have these safe spaces, then how are they?

Same thing like like with the lesbians and like with bi’s.

And there’s this there’s this kind of like argument that’s constantly like, well, are you bi enough?

Are you lesbian enough?

Bisexuals got it so bad.

Actually, here’s the thing is my my first relationship.

Like a bisexual man, and I would give so I would get so much pushback on people questioning him.

Oh, he’s not really bi.

He’s just he’s he’s just he’s gay, but he hasn’t fully come out yet.

And I’m like that that to me is is that they bisexuals do not get enough recognition in being bi.

Like there is there is such a thing as being attracted to both female and male like and I would always have to like speak up for him.

I’m like no like he like stop stop doing that to him.

Stop diminishing him and basically literally trying to put him in a box because you feel uncomfortable with the fact that like literally he has an attraction to men.

Which is honestly none of their business given the fact that they’re not in a relationship with him.

You know what I’m saying?

And that’s just go back to homophobia.

Like that was like the biggest thing too because I’m like what like are you like I don’t like I like I don’t care, you know, because I understand like attraction is completely diverse, you know, relationships are completely diverse.

Like we want to talk about unconditional love that like and then also demisexual, you know what I mean?

Like to me like I fall in love with you as a person.

So it doesn’t matter like to me what you identify with or like what your sexuality is, you know what I mean?

Like if I love you then I love you and it doesn’t even matter if you’re dating someone who’s bi.

Like, I don’t know.

Oh no, but we’re not even talking about gold star status or platinum star status.

Wait, I feel like I’m getting so much terminology.

Wait, I’m trying to because honestly, this is a little new for me.

Are you talking about the hierarchy system or what?

No, I’m talking about like, okay, so gold star status is you have never been with somebody other than the sex that you’re choosing to be with.

So if you’re gay, you’ve only ever had gay partners.

If you’re a lesbian, you’ve only had lesbian partners and there are people that will search them out like you only date them.

Now platinum star status is the one that’s really wild.

So platinum star is like you’re a lesbian and you have only ever touched women.

Okay.

And the same thing like with guys, like the only woman you ever touched was when you were born of your mother.

Oh, that’s crazy.

Platinum star, baby.

Yeah.

Look at me.

But I’m saying for real, but like, there’s this like unicorn hunting that happens.

There’s another term you may not be used to.

So unicorn hunting is like a lot of times and it’s a toxic kind of a thing.

Like it’s a cute unicorn.

Ah, kawaii, like whatever.

It’s not really.

It’s what it is, is you’ll hear it a lot of time, like with truffles, right?

Like there’s like a cishet couple that wants to introduce a woman into the relationship, you know, for hookups and stuff.

So that means a unicorn hunting.

Yeah.

You know, and so, but there are, but there is that same that happens with these gold stars and these platinum stars, because that’s what they’re doing.

They’re trophy hunting.

They’re like unicorn hunting.

Wait a second.

I think I’ve been a victim of unicorn hunting.

Share your experience.

Oh my gosh, another, another bisexual man was in a relationship with his girlfriend.

And this is actually, this is actually crazy.

I, it wasn’t here in California.

I had moved to like another state and I had, I had met this guy and he invited me over and, you know, we clicked like automatically.

And then I would like to, I would like you to meet my girlfriend.

And I was like, huh?

Like you have a girlfriend?

Like he didn’t even tell me like before, you know, which I was just like, sure, you know, like whatever.

But yeah.

And then after that, we had never met because I guess him and his girlfriend had broken up.

So I don’t know what caused that.

You know, but they were, I know she, she very much well knew.

Like they were, they were looking together.

So it could have been something else.

But yeah, I, I, oh my gosh.

It’d be one of those situations too.

Like what I mean, I’ve been seeing is basically like men will pressure these women because, you know, they just be greedy to like look for these other person.

And then the woman don’t be fully involved, but they’ll just literally do it to try to like stay in that relationship or whatever.

And now literally like cause harm in that relationship because it’s like, it’s not.

Anyhow, they was trying to do it because they didn’t set that boundary.

Yeah.

Because, I mean, I feel like there’s a lot of emotional pressure for like women to basically, I guess, please, or be with a man.

This is literally what y’all been taught growing up.

Like, oh my God, you have to do this submissive role.

You got to cook, clean, do this.

Everything is for pretty much person.

You know what I’m saying?

And it’s like a lot of women either free themselves from their identity and also understand that they have to love themselves as well.

And basically put their foot down and basically be with the right person that pretty much respect their boundaries.

Yeah.

Yeah.

100%.

But yeah, so when you’re talking about all that and we can talk about cruising, like what that used to be like.

I’m just saying.

Honestly, like I’ve never gotten to it because it’s like, I mean, you know, I’m in a social media age.

Talk to them.

Cruising is a very OG term that has come back around again.

It has.

It has.

I love it.

I’m learning about it.

So, okay.

So cruising is when, this is in like more gay culture.

Okay.

Kind of like how you hear U-Haul with lesbians.

But anyways, that’s another segue.

But like, so it’s like they would meet at the parks and have like quickie sex at park bathrooms and stuff.

Mm-hmm.

And they would cruise parks.

Yes.

Yes.

And that’s one of the, but I mean, it was more than just that.

They would cruise the bars and the bar scene was much different.

Well, it wasn’t really much different, but it was one of those things where like, it’d be like guys would kind of see each other from across the room.

But like, it was called cruising because you’d go by them a couple times and like suss them out.

Like, but it was very much a more masculine of the two would be like, you know.

Honestly, that happened to me one time and I was scared.

Like I was scared.

I feel kind of scared.

I feel like it’s kind of like predator.

That’s what it felt like.

It felt like a lion trying to hunt me.

No, no, literally.

Like literally that happened to me.

It was like, it was like, I think it was like older white or Hispanic dude or whatever.

And he was just staring me down and I’m like, okay, are you going to say something?

Are you going to speak?

Are you going to say hi?

Like, you know what I’m saying?

It’s just literally he just kept getting closer and I was like, oh, I’m so uncomfortable.

Like, use your words.

Like, I don’t know.

And then I’m walking away.

You’re following me now.

It’s like, are you trying to kill me?

Like, what’s going on?

Like, it’s like, it felt like a Jeffrey Dahmer.

Like, I don’t know what was going on.

It just completely was not the vibe.

But, you know, I mean, I was, I’m more of like, I mean, the way I got introduced to like, you know, pretty much like, I guess my sexuality and like experiencing my sexuality.

We’re like apps, like Grindr and stuff where like the quick little pic turns actionable.

Oh, we doing this and all that stuff.

The low stakes, like, oh, we’re going to like have sex and whatever.

But I never dealt with like actual real life cruising except for like recently as an adult.

And I’m like, oh, wow.

I don’t really like I feel like that’s a very like person, which is should be more natural.

It’s like, why are we not like.

That’s just a part of that culture.

And it’s like I said, it’s one of those things where it’s like, now I do.

I am going to put the TLDR out there again for all of our listeners.

I am not disparaging any of this, but this is part of our queer culture that we really need to talk about.

And like being better to like, like when you add these like labels and stuff and like and the cruising thing I get.

But I’m like, OK, let’s maybe bring it into post me too.

Let’s bring it forward into the future.

Like we can still honor the idea of cruising, but like, let’s not be like.

With it, maybe, you know, and it’s just like, maybe.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Like, you know, and yeah, because, oh, my gosh, totally.

Right.

Like, it’s not just I feel like because I like dating apps anyways, which I feel like because.

I’ve watched on, you know, Grindr and all that for I’ve seen them, I’ve seen them, I’ve seen profiles.

I know all that.

Yes.

I was on a dating app like once and I swear it maybe lasted for like a month, but I couldn’t do it because it feels like I’m selling my.

And I just have like a like a I don’t know, like I guess like a rebellious, like I have an issue with like authority, you know, and I’m not going to sell myself to you because like, why would you want to buy me?

You know, like I’m more of like the natural way.

And so like I could see how people who.

Well, at the time, there was no like dating apps.

Right.

So that’s why cruising was like a thing existed.

Flagging existed.

Like that’s where you’ll see like the things like the D rings.

Right.

Like lesbians have.

Oh, yeah.

So we have like D rings like I well, mine are fully circular, but you know, like the collapsible little hook things that you use for climbing.

But you put your keys on it and depending on what side you’re you’re either butch or you’re a bottom.

Well, I shouldn’t say butch your top or bottom.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and legit.

So like when you.

I think gays have like a bandana.

They have bandana and it’s color coded.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you think that’s because there there was such pushback on.

It was a quiet way.

Yeah, it was a quiet way for us to know to know one another.

And like I said, that’s what’s so wild for people, because I would have a D ring and I didn’t even realize that I was flagging.

And then I was like, oh, so whatever.

But it is kind of like reassuring.

And I think it goes to like have a whole message that regardless of what society says, people who are, you know, see seen as out of the norm are going to find a community one way or another.

Like as much back on it, they’re going to do something inconspicuous.

Earrings.

That’s another one for boys.

Earrings.

Oh, I’ve heard about that.

Yeah.

Right or left.

That’s very old school.

I heard.

Yeah.

I remember my mom.

She was like, is that like still is are these things still a thing?

I don’t think so.

Yes.

Are they?

Well, OK, not the earring thing, at least not post.

The earring thing is not a thing.

Oh, it’s like geographical.

So, well, not anymore.

I don’t know.

I’m not going to talk about the East Coast because that may be a thing.

I don’t know.

But but specifically for us, at least where we are in California, it is not a thing.

But oh, very much flagging is still a thing.

Sure.

Like with bandanas.

Very much so.

And a lot of times, too, they’ll use their harnesses now, which I think is absolutely amazing.

Like they’ll use the harnesses or their bracers or like if they’re pups, like they’ll get there.

They’re going on at the circuit parties because I just thought they was just like kinky men or something.

Well, that, too.

But I like it.

No, but I mean, but I think it’s cool that it’s evolving to like also add those things.

Like because like if you’re like in your go go shorts, you don’t got no pocket for your frickin bandana.

What are you going to do with that?

You know, or like if you’re into multiple things, you want to flag all the things and you just want to be tossed around like a beanbag chair, you know, kind of thing.

But.

Exists totally.

And same thing with lesbians.

It still exists.

Totally.

But yeah.

No, it’s crazy because literally like how like, you know, you know how ostracized and shunned we had to be.

And basically we just had to like literally give like different like signs to where basically we couldn’t let other people know for safety reasons.

So, yeah.

To this day, it’s still like some safety concerns.

That’s why a lot of men are like still like DL like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that’s why we code switch.

Yeah.

You know, and it’s it’s and it’s and that’s the thing.

Like we come together as as a community, because I know like like in the BIPOC community, you guys have to code switch all the time to be right.

So like for real.

Right.

So like if if you’re white, like there is a cultural divide that is there automatically.

Yeah, for sure.

So it’s like and then on top of that, can you imagine like his experience?

So not only is he a young black man, he is also a queer out.

So he is constantly code switching in his life.

Yes.

What if what would you guys say that our society needs the most of when it comes to, I guess, the first step in fixing like this dating culture?

I would say basically what we need for sure.

Love, love, loving yourself, loving others, we need to pretty much be like more open to like actually understanding perceptions that’s like bigger than ourselves, rather than literally this straight narrow box of this role that we’re born into that we have to be.

So I feel like it comes with that and literally figuring it out, coming to terms with who you are for yourself, straight and gay people.

Mind you, we’re all wearing a mask in some type of form.

Life is drag.

Everything is drag.

Yes.

Oh, thank you.

Yes.

Uh-huh.

Yeah, absolutely.

So that’s the first step.

Internalizing, working on yourselves, opening your beliefs, opening your views, thinking of different experiences outside of yourself.

Literally going off of this hierarchy that you think you’re better than, because literally we all believe the same.

We all literally are here once for the first time in our lives.

So that’s the first step.

And then basically, literally just pretty much spreading their love, their acceptance.

So everybody can authentically come out as themselves.

I mean, I feel like that would be the step to everything.

I feel like everybody’s so tense from basically literally feeling like they have to be in this role or be this person that they literally lose themselves in all of it, you know?

Yeah.

Well, I’ll say for all the hot gossiping that we’ve been doing, I can tell you from being in the community and being a facilitator in this space for as long as I have.

And my own experience with my own children, which whenever, we can totally talk about that too, because everybody’s out.

There’s literally only one cishet person in my extended family.

Everybody else is somewhere in the career spectrum.

Wow.

Yeah.

So that’s a whole nother, like I said, that’s a whole nother thing.

Right.

So, but legitimately, like to bring it in on a positive note, like legitimately, one thing I always close with is when we go around the circle at the end of like our peer to peers is I always say that I always take with me community.

Because we are always learning and evolving and doing stuff like this, like this podcast.

So like for the listeners, I was pointing downwards like this, this, this, this, this.

He was, he was, he said.

He sure did.

Because this is what we need.

And it’s like, again, like I said, there is no, like you could feel however you feel about your place.

But I promise you, you will always be accepted in our community.

You know, there will always be a friend there.

There will always be a shoulder there.

It may be a mentor situation.

You know, I can leave positively with though, like the younger generations.

So you’re talking those that are about your guys’s age are the most gender fluid that we have ever seen.

And they are the least likely to label themselves.

And they just are, they’re vibing.

It is the vibe, right?

Which just keep engendering that and in fostering that, like in those kids, you know, it doesn’t, you’re not really influencing in one way or another.

You’re just like, yeah, you’re coming as your whole person keep showing up that way.

And wherever you fall is wherever you fall.

Right.

And just remember, like, if you come out, like I said, it took me literally 49 years to come out to myself as trans.

You know, and it’s one of those things that, you know, who, I don’t know where I’m going to go, know what my, I mean, I have an idea of what my trans journey is going to look like, but that doesn’t mean that’s how it’s actually going to be, you know, and, and embracing that part of yourself and embracing your journey.

Because you never going to know, like I said, you’re looking, you’re, you’re talking, like you’re talking to a person that was female and used to have her Barbies and kin when I didn’t even know lesbians and gayness existed all the way to dating girls, dating boys, you know, having, you know, sex with both of them, you know, marrying a cishet man.

Automatically gay.

Yeah.

Like, wild.

So.

Wait, I didn’t think about that.

Is he, was he LGBT before, you know, actually like dating you when you were a cishet woman or is he just straight up like hetero?

Okay, I can talk about this.

Yes.

So, um, basically feels that he loves me for me, but that also means that that part of himself is also accepted.

Right.

So it’s one of those things where, and, and like my spouse is very like clean cut and stuff.

So it’s very much like he used to be sexual.

Yeah.

Like that used to be the hot term.

So it’s just, and I think that’s what you’re talking about personal acceptance.

It’s more like, he’s like, I don’t really need to label it.

I just know I love you.

Yeah.

Right.

But I, I, we just had this conversation kind of a little bit about it.

Cause I’m like, oh, okay.

So like, you’re, you’re definitely my daddy now.

We joke about it like that because we can and it’s, but he’s like totally like fine.

Like, you know, but I mean, can you, this, this is also the same thing that would break so many marriages and so many relationships.

So yeah.

So it’s wild.

That’s why I say like things like you just need more of that acceptance and more of that let’s enjoy the journey.

Cause we’re, this is our first time here.

This is at least as far as we know.

Yes.

Um, you know, and so just try to be as authentic as possible with yourself.

I agree.

I agree.

100%.

I always say like, um, sometimes we get caught up in looking at what’s in front of us.

Can only see a foot and we don’t necessarily, um, take a step back from like a bird’s eye point of view.

You know what I mean?

Like everybody’s looking to like move forward or like, what’s the next thing and what’s this.

And to me it’s living in the presence and enjoying the journey and not, you know, trying to or control it.

Like, and I, I do feel like titles are one way of doing that, of trying to control your perception of yourself or how you view yourself, depending on how others.

Oh girl.

That’s like a whole nother podcast.

Yeah, I know.

Cause I’m thinking like, literally, I was about to like jump into that.

Cause it’s like, I’m not trying to like, um, you know, to download people at all, you know, to come out or just take it at your time at your pace.

Cause I completely understand.

It is hard being out.

You know what I mean?

It is like definitely another experience, another barrier that you have to deal with.

You know what I’m saying?

It’s, it’s not, it’s not the easiest, but it’s freeing as well.

It’s also like literally like so freeing for the soul, but you know, I just, you know, at one point you get tired of waking up and living for what somebody else wants you to be.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And it’s so freeing being authentic.

Yes, it is freeing and it’s beautiful.

So I wanted to thank you guys, or do you have a, do you have a point Ace?

I saw your little finger go up.

Two small things while I’m pulling.

So, so one is I, I genuinely want to invite everybody who is here locally to please come to the center and, and know that we live in community and we love you.

And you know, all of this is goofy and silly and whatever, but like, just know you’re loved, you know?

This is the hot gossip one.

We’re talking like Love Island exists, guys, come on.

So like, but that doesn’t mean like we’re like, you feel however you feel about dating and everybody wants relationships and everybody wants community.

So I just want to make sure everybody knows because I totally know how things can be.

You’re loved and you’re valid in whatever journey.

I’m going to also say this too, because Ace didn’t bring it up, but I’m going to actually show up.

The center is also hosting a Valentine social, right?

Oh yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

Yes, get all your, get all your plugs in because this is what this genuinely is what our society needs is, is a safe space, you know, like outside of, I can’t believe I didn’t do that.

Also, cause I’m also in other clubs.

I’m also with Delta Zeta Tau fraternity on campus and like, you know, I love my brothers.

Like they’re super great.

You know what I’m saying?

And it’s like, they’re so embracing.

They’ve been opened up to me.

I also have queer brothers also in there.

I like community.

So it’s just like, just get out there and meet people, join clubs and actually just get the experience, like, you know, life.

Come to our club.

It’s Tuesdays, you know, 4 to 5 PM over at the magic center.

Um, so, so for the center, it is on Saturday from six to 8 PM and it’s all ages and all families.

And that’s a Valentine’s thing.

And also if you go to our Instagram, our Facebook or the website, we have a monthly calendar that we publish.

So that way you can pick and choose.

And also there’s counseling services there and all sorts of other things.

Closet, we have a community closet.

I’m so sorry to cut you off.

You have plans that day?

Cause I was about to say, I’m about to take you actually.

On, on Valentine’s day, I have plans with my best friend.

Okay, cool.

Cause I was about to say, I want to take y’all to the, are you going to be there?

You’re going to be there for sure.

Well, again, I’m going to try to be.

It depends.

I might be swept away.

I mean, true.

Y’all, yeah, you, yeah, yeah.

I wanted to get your guys’ reaction, like on, like Mike, when you see the picture of me from before.

Okay.

All right.

So wait, that’s crazy.

This is July last year.

That’s you?

That’s you.

Oh my God.

That’s me.

I look at, look at me then and look at me now and tell me which one feels real and which one feels for real, right?

Yep.

See performing gender.

It’s like, I can see it too, but it’s also like, I mean, this is cute, but this is you, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That, that goes, yeah.

Performing is, is another topic I can go on and on and on about the feeling like you need to perform and how that affects it.

I wish, and the dating scene though, but this also affects that.

Everything genuinely is interconnected.

And asked me to do the podcast, which I don’t know if it’s like a bad thing because I will sit here and yap for hours.

I know it’s so hard.

Okay.

Thank you Kwame and Ace.

Again, if you want to, if you want to show up to the Valentine’s Day, the Shades of Masculinity, please go seek it out.

And also if you want to hear more conversations on topics that need to be spoken about, we air this every Friday.

Okay.

Stay updated or else you’re going to miss some really good content because this was really good content.

Thank you guys so much.

It was so great meeting you.